Curse

Jeydra · Jul 01, 2009, 12:16 AM // 00:16

I just don't see why it matters that other damage types can be countered by prot and b-spam can't. I see the difference. So what?

On the prot's role versus b-spike -- have you tried playing BSurge against 2x Necros + 2x Fire Eles + 1x Ranger + 2x Monks + 1x Flagger?

Allow me to rage here: 2x Necros + 2x Fire Eles + 1x Ranger + 2x Monks + 1x Flagger is overpowered because I can't do almost anything and I might as well be off making a sandwich or catching up on some reading and no build in the game should have the luxury of taking me out of the game and making it a 7v8.

Does that sound stupid to you? It sure does to me, especially since your beloved Prot Monk does have something to do against bloodspike, aka. spam Reversal of Fortune.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

I dunno if anyone mentioned this in the previous walls of text, but I think that one of the main reasons bloodspike wasn't run this last mAT was because it doesn't have such a certain win against AoE Hexes or builds with multiple fire eles, both of which were fairly common.

Agree. So much for a stupidly overpowered build.

PS:@Nadia - have you tried playing Bloodspike vs. dual Fire Eles? Dual Fire Eles is stupidly overpowered because it rolls over bloodspike and makes all the Necros useless and no build in the game should completely take all the Necros out of the game and make it an honorable 1v8. Yeah ...

Nadia Roark · Jul 01, 2009, 01:01 AM // 01:01

I've told you why life stealing matters about eight times now; it matters because it completely takes an entire character class (the prot monk) out of the game. It also has no +armor inscription, no insgnia, and no skills (other than spot heals) that can counter them once cast.

Clearly, you "don't see why it matters" because you're either really that dense (which I still want to doubt) or you're just refusing to see it. I've all but drawn you a picture by now as to why BSpike is bad for the game and it all makes perfect sense, I promise.

There will always be a little bit of "Build Wars" in this game; I think most of us know that by now. But from a balance standpoint, taking a monk out of the game entirely is an order of magnitude more serious than marginalizing the elite spell of one character. BSurge eles can still run other things to make them useful when their elite isn't. Running without a prot simply isn't viable. Your wanton strawmannery and non-sequiturs can't save you from the fact that BSpike is a bad game mechanic and needs to die. I think the OP's suggestions are decent ones.

Comparing playing against BSpike to playing a BSurge ele against a team without melee is a blatant straw man. I'm making points about 'damage' and its counters, and you're countering with an example of diminished utility from a specific build. Playing a team that has no melee might make your elite useless, but you still have both monks operating at their full potential. Lots of builds can render specific utility useless, but only one can make prot not even worth playing. Prot != Utility.

The prot line happens to have a skill that can mitigate one spiker's Dark Pact and that's supposed to make everything better? Please. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen a HA BSpike use Dark Pact. Ever. I don't know how it works in GvG.

You're putting words in my mouth; which I suspect you're doing out of frustration since your replies are getting shorter and shorter and clearly (I didn't think this was possible) less thought out. For all the "nuh uh, you're wrong" you've thrown at me, you have yet to explain why 6 people spamming unprottable life stealing is actually good for gameplay. I never said that BSpike was unbeatable; I just said that it enjoys absurd and imbalanced advantages found nowhere else in the game.

The skills by themselves, as you noted earlier, are nothing special. But as they synergize with 5 or 6 other people using them, they suddenly become fairly broken.

You might have to elaborate on why having 2 fire eles automatically means death for any BSpike team. It smells like another one of your trademark non sequiturs.

Jeydra · Jul 01, 2009, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Your arguments can be summarized as one - we seem to have moved there anyway - that you "take the prot Monk out of play". Except you don't. I gave you a reason above. Here's another example. I create a Mesmer build with Ineptitude, Wandering Eye, Clumsiness, Distortion, Price of Failure, Spirit of Failure, Reckless Haste and Res Sig. I go into RA only to find my opponents consisting of two Elementalists, a Monk and a Necro, none of which are stupid enough to wand with all the hexes on them. I'm useless. Tell me now, is it:

1. Elementalists, Monks and Necros should all be nerfed since they've "taken me out of play", or
2. I'm a retard?

You've explained to the world why you're having problems against b-spike. You don't want to run anything else! Just look: if you know you're going against Bloodspike, run a second copy of WoH, or use HB. Of course if you do they you gimp yourself against every other build, but big deal - bloodspikers already gimp themselves against lots of builds. If you're unwilling to sacrifice and accept a build disadvantage against so many builds, then by all means spec a little into Healing Prayers and bring Gift of Health or something. If you're unwilling to do that, then take Heaven's Delight or Divine Healing. If you're still unwilling to do that, is it you failing to adapt or is it the opposing build being overpowered?

You claim that even if you play BSurge against a team with no melee, your Monks are operating at full potential, so ostensibly it doesn't matter. But why should Monks matter more in balance than BSurge? They're both single characters. They serve completely different roles maybe, but from the gameplay viewpoint they're both played by a single player. I see no reason why the comparison is a strawman.

You claim that BSurge against a team with no physicals still leaves you with some utility. Indeed, it does. Standard BSurge against no physicals means you still have Gale, Shell Shock, Kaolai and Death Pact Signet. But you're still pretty useless. Prot Monk vs. Bloodspike still leaves you with RoF spam, which is quite effective (and GvG bloodspikes use Dark Pact, because Soul Reaping isn't enough energy - see above). Even with no Dark Pact you can squeeze healing from Divine Favour. Less effective yes. Same with BSurge. And even if you are the Prot Monk, you can still squeeze heals from Divine Favour alone.

On why dual fire eles beat b-spam: GvG Bloodspikers rely on Dark Prison / Death's Charge -> Iron Palm -> Signet of Agony + Unholy Feast to score kills. Since after you teleport you are bunched up, Fire Magic destroys the bloodspike. If you're unaware of this, then you should say at once that your argument for nerfing bloodspike is based on HA, when I'd tell you I don't really care / know anything about HA and I'd not debate you - but say, stress that you think bloodspike should be nerfed because it is overpowered in HA.

By the way the OP specifically mentioned AT's / mAT's, so he's clearly approaching bloodspike from a GvG perspective.

I'm not explaining why 6 people spamming unprottable life stealing is good for gameplay. I'm taking the null hypothesis. Without reasons why they are bad for gameplay, I see no reason to nerf either.

Nadia Roark · Jul 01, 2009, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Let's review: now we've gone from "Well the rest of Blood Magic sucks" (which is true, but is an illegitimate defense of BSpike and I think even you realize this now since you seemed to have stopped harping on it) to "But you can shut down utility" and now we've finally arrived at "but you can still have Divine Favor Heals."

Paper thin arguments do not usually result in concessions like this. Methinks someone should engage in a logical re-evaluation of the points made so far and how they've been dealt with by the opposition.

Saying "but you can still use Divine Favor heals" is like saying "well if you shoot enough spitwads at a tank, you might jam its treads." Speaking from experience, Divine Favor bonuses are ineffectual against BSpike 99% of the time. Whether I'm casting spells for DF bonus or not is completely immaterial to whether my team wins or loses. I know, and I have done this. I Spirit Bond/AoS spike targets in the hopes that it will make a difference. Sometimes it does, most of the time it doesn't.

You're either failing to understand, or refusing to understand my point: BSpike takes the prot out of the game just because it's BSpike. Every single example you have furnished so far relies on a specific configuration on the other team to deny them some sort of utility or (in this case) pressure. Build Wars'ing and removing all prots from the game are two beasts of entirely different stripe. Everyone (except Random teams) carries a prot and BSpike teams know this; that's why they run it. Running without Melee is doable. Running without $ROLE that takes away $UTILITY is also often doable. Running without a Prot is not.

Hybrids are okay and Gift is an option, but none of that changes the fact that BSpike enjoys some pretty silly advantages, and other spike and pressure builds have been nerfed for less. Regardless of the skills your monks happen to be carrying, Blood Spike is still the only method of damage that has only one counter--pains seem to have been taken by the devs in the remaining damage categories to keep our options open. BSpike just simply doesn't fit with the player-killing mechanics ANet has established elsewhere.

On your B-Surge example: to put it as simply as I possibly can, Protection Prayers are an entire attribute line while BSurge is just an elite skill. Not having Melee doesn't make all Air Magic skills useless; BSpike does however accomplish this against Protection Prayers.

I have yet to run into a BSpike stupid enough to run with Dark Pact. Maybe they do in GvG for some reason--I dunno. I can see how it might help against Dark Pact, but I haven't been lucky enough to face a team that packed (har har) it. Plenty has been nerfed because it was overpowered in HA; Dual Smite and Sandstorm spam to name only two.

But let me set the record straight (again): it doesn't matter to me who is running BSpike, how powerful it is, or where it's being run. What bothers me about it is that the method by which it kills players is unique to all other ways by which we strive to make enemy bars go down. Even if there was no viable blood spike build, it would bother me that skills like Shadow Strike and Vamp Gaze work the way they do. Whether or not a BSpike build has any practical currency, there's still no other way to guarantee unprottable damage outside of Shadow Shroud and Power Block which both have the decency to be elites.

I'm not the OP. I could care less how he's approaching the issue from a GvG perspective.

Balance is a Big Picture equation; even with the PvP/PvE skill splits, ANet has to (scratch that--should) take into account all PvP formats when contemplating the power/utility of these builds. If someone out there thinks BSpike is bad for GvG play and can explain it, fine; but as far as 1v1 HA is concerned it removes the prot from the game in a way that no other build can possibly hope to marginalize any other single enemy player. That is why BSpike is bad for the game, from my experience. If you disagree with this (which it seems you do), the onus is actually on you to explain why it's good for the game, or--at the very least--why it's not bad. Since HA and GvG Blood Spike seem to operate on different principles, I'm sure there's some room for compromise. But from where I sit, right now, Bspike is not doing game balance a goddamn bit of good.

Jeydra · Jul 01, 2009, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Casters take antimelee out of the game because it is caster damage, the same way lifestealing takes Protection Prayers out of the game because it is lifestealing. Why do you care so much about Protection Prayers but ignore every other similar counter? Why do you care about Protection Prayers being unable to prot Bloodspike but not care about how Fire Magic is unable to prot Airspike? If everyone runs a prot, why don't you stop running a prot? If you tell me "but if I don't run a prot, every other teambuild beats me", well then too bad, unless you are going to argue that "there should be a build that beats every other build if played well" (which I think is what has been driving your argument all along, you just haven't realized it). Of course it's possible to run without a Prot Monk. You just lose to everything else. Bloodspike enjoys some "pretty silly advantages" and enjoys some "pretty silly disadvantages" as well.

You are giving Protection Prayers this esteemed position that it should be able to prot every incoming kind of damage. Why should it? You say that lifestealing is unique to all other ways of dealing damage and so it is. So what? Nature's Renewal is a unique way of keeping down enchantments, there's no other skill that does something similar to it. BSurge is a unique way of keeping down melee - it is AoE blind. Avatar of Melandru is a unique way of keeping blind and cripple off, and there's no other skill that does that. So what?

Fire Magic is also an entire attribute line and it is powerless against Air Magic. So is Axe Mastery. Scythe Mastery. Soul Reaping. Lots more attribute lines I'm not going to bother naming.

Can you give a good reason why removing the Prot Monk from the game is a bad thing? In any case, would you agree that removing the BSurge from the game by not running melee is a bad thing as well?

Nadia Roark · Jul 01, 2009, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Again, Prot != Utility. No one sends a caster into PvP with nothing but antimelee skills. You keep trying to argue with me that certain builds marginalize certain utilities, but utility casters don't rely entirely on their utility the way some monks (and their teams) rely on prot. Simply put, you will always have more wiggle room with utility builds than you do with monks if only because keeping your team alive is more important than situational utility.

I believe I have sufficiently demonstrated why BSurge (and therefore antimelee utility in general) vs. no melee is a straw man compared to BSpike versus Protection Prayers. Any time you want to stop barking up that decidedly very dead tree is fine by me.

You suggest that "why don't you stop running a prot?" and then turn around and say "but don't complain that you'll lose to everything else.... by the way, you'll lose to everything else."

I'm not saying there should be an OMG PERFECT BUILD that can beat everything else if "played well." What I'm saying is that the methods of damage/prevention should be consistent throughout the game, and they are for the most part excepting the life stealing spells we're arguing about. Every time you've been confronted with this viewpoint you've ignored or misrepresented it with examples about how certain situations diminish specific (i.e. anticaster or antimelee) utility.

Bloodspike doesn't enjoy disadvantages commensurate to the advantages it enjoys, not in HA. Again, being able to Build Wars BSpike is one thing, being able to completely remove Protection Prayers from the game is entirely different. Removing melee or casters or whatever from the game via utility is simply not as potent an advantage as removing all prot monks; and anyone with a neuron and axon to rub together for warmth would have realized this a long time ago.

I'm not comparing attribute lines against each other directly; I'm comparing life stealing as a damage mechanic to Protection Prayers and you have consistently failed to levy an equivalent example. The simple fact of the matter is that nothing else can shut down prot entirely except elites, but I'm beginning to doubt that will ever dawn on you and if it has, you'll never admit it. BSpike skills just simply do not fit with the established damage/prevention mechanics, either on a skill-based or equipment-based level.

Prot isn't the purpose of the Fire Magic line. No one expects Fire Magic to "prot Airspike" but the Protection Prayers line exists ostensibly to, y'know... protect players from damage. Elite counters like PBlock or Shadow Shroud are one thing, but non-elite prot dodging skills spammed en masse is quite assuredly different.

Quote:

You are giving Protection Prayers this esteemed position that it should be able to prot every incoming kind of damage. Why should it?

Finally, a question worth answering.

Because the only other things in the game that can shut it down are elites and require specific timing, usage and tactics. Because every other type of 'damage' can be protted, and there doesn't appear to be a good reason why there should be one exception just for the hell of it. Because it keeps the players who are using Prot skills in the game and using their skill to win instead of twiddling their thumbs. Because every other method of player killing has been specifically designed by ANet to have multiple options for counter. Because having more counters (be they skills, insignias, inscriptions, or functional limitations as mentioned in the OP) to BSpike is better for gameplay variety than simply saying "oh, lets have this one thing in the game only be countered by spot heals."

If we want to keep BSpike immune to prot for some reason, fine--but there should be some other way of dealing with it as well since there's some other way of dealing with everything else. Barring a functionality nerf (as proposed by the OP) or turning those skills into damage skills, at least give us some kind of skill/insignia/rune/inscription or something to deal with life stealing.

I never said that skills/spells with unique effects are bad for the game. I'm saying that skills/spells with unique, unprottable 'damage' is. If there were a shield inscription, an insignia, or some or other skill that diminished the effectiveness of life stealing (or, say, the OP's suggestion that it can't steal life in excess of your character's maximum), I wouldn't be bitching about it. My complaints about life stealing skills as abused by BSpike builds hinge on the fact that the rest of the game seems to have been developed with an eye towards making sure each specific damage type has multiple (sometimes stacking) counters; be they any combination of prots/insignias/inscriptions or other skills. It just doesn't fit.

Removing the prot monk from the game entirely is bad for gameplay because it results in no gameplay for the sucker unfortunate enough to be playing Prot. Also, (as I have said repeatedly) it flies in the face of the established damage/prevention mechanics already set up by ANet, and it removes the player from the game on a level that nothing else you have mentioned yet quite accomplishes. Playing against a team with no melee might make BSurge useless, but you can still use the rest of your skills.

Again, you're invoking a straw man that I have already set on fire twice. A team having no melee does not make all Air Magic skills useless--of course it marginalizes your elite but that happens all the time. If I'm playing PnH, I'm not suddenly 'gimped' because I face a team with no hexes; it just means I don't have to worry about removing them.

Jeydra · Jul 01, 2009, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Nobody goes into PvP with a build that has only antimelee because they're aware they might face a build with no melee. Yet you go into PvP with a build that has only prots, and then cry when you run into bloodspike. Awesome.

Don't tell me Protection Prayers should be able to prot everything because I can't see any reason why it should. You've essentially said "I have to run a prot so I can beat everything except bloodspike. But I can't beat bloodspike if I have a prot. No fun, please nerf bloodspike".

Bloodspike only works because you can't run two healers, and they know it. They see a weakness, and they exploit it. Balanced teambuilds run midline defense that is for obvious reasons targetted against enemy physicals. Casterspikes know this, see a weakness, and they exploit it.

I KNOW Protection Prayers doesn't work against lifesteal (other than the skill[s] I referred to earlier), and I acknowledge that. You've just done a fantastic job of convincing me that that actually matters.

The background assumption behind what you wrote - that Protection Prayers should be able to prot every kind of damage - is stupid. I can see no reason why it should be so. Yet you go ahead and claim that Protection Prayers is an entire skill line that is powerless against bloodspike. As though that actually means anything? Air Magic is also an entire skill line that is largely powerless against bloodspike, except of course this also means nothing. See, the second statement is almost identical to the first. It is also ridiculous. By extension the first statement is meaningless as well.

Bloodspike does not fit with established damage-prevention techniques. So what? Why does this matter? Why do you care? Stop dodging this question. You're laughing at it, and you can keep laughing at it, but until you provide good reasons to laugh at it I'll simply keep posing it.

None of the reasons you provide are borderline convincing. There certainly are ways to kill someone while bypassing almost all prot. Example: Shovespike kills bypassing all prot except Reversal of Fortune and Shielding Hands. RoF alone cannot save the spike. Shielding Hands is pretty rare. Taken together this means that so long as the spike is executed properly people will die to it, but nobody is bitching about it being overpowered. All other kinds of damage can be protted except lifesteal, and the game sure seems to have been designed to be that way (hasn't it been so for four years?). "This takes skill" arguments I've written elsewhere I pour scorn on. Having insignias etc to counter bloodspike with simply destroys it. Mitch wrote elsewhere that one reason Airspike disappeared is that you'll simply be faced with +10 Lightning shields and +7 Warding spears, not to mention everyone has Vitae runes now. What does that tell you?

There is already something to deal with lifestealing by the way and I wrote it above: switch out your +5 / +7 vs. Elemental spear for +30 HP.

Explain why the rest of the game seems to have been developed with an eye towards making each specific damage type has counters, and yet lifestealing has been the way it is for four years.

Nadia Roark · Jul 01, 2009, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Jeydra, I think you just don't understand that removing Prot from the game has completely different implications than countering other attributes (like melee or whatever else) via utility. You are treating it on a level equal to everything else in the game, which seems fair on the surface, but the function of prot is important enough that its counters should be taken fairly seriously (which is why every other hard prot counter happens to be an elite). Every example you've suggested so far deals with removing pressure from the enemy team; nothing removes the enemy team's ability to defend itself in quite the same capacity that BSpike does.

Killed u man · Jul 01, 2009, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Jeydra, stop posting and go observe.

I don't give a shit what arguements you give:

If bad ppl such as Vador and company can beat top guilds (Insert ANY guild), then it must be broken.

It's not even a question of: "Yeah, but these guilds just had a bad day, otherwise they wouldn't have lost".

The matter of fact is that you have 6-7 Necros doing ABSOLUTLY NOTHING but press: T-1-2-3... and then STILL have a chance at beating top teams.
Even if not for the damage, it's overpowered because it totally redicules game balance. It takes "skill", takes a shit on it, washes it off with shit, and then throws it out the window in a pile of shit, that's how bad it is.

It's so sad, I'm actually about to use the following arguement:

"Atleast the old bloodspike (SS - OG) required people to time their spike", but this current build is simply spam skills on recharge.

And again, the reason why it doesn't win mAT's is because all bspike guilds CAN ONLY RUN BSPIKE. Thus, when you face them, you run 2 WoH monks, and a WoH flagger, 2 Fire Eles and dual hammer warriors.
Yes, you CAN build wars it, and pretty much guarantee victory WHEN YOU KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO FACE IT. But if that makes the build balanced, as you state, then NO BUILD IS OVERPOWERED.

Ritspike? Run 8 Migraine Mesmers...
RaO heroway? Ok, I won't lie, that build really did have VERY FEW "guarantee win" counters.
Zerg-the-lord-with SV and IP-way? Run 8 water eles.

If a mAT match is played on Burning Isle, and tbh with the Formula One Fallback and incomming, pretty much every map besides frozen, ANY top guild can run bspike, and have a pretty good chance of winning. (Without effort) Guild have actually done it before... But people still have enough honor not to do it. (Aswell as the risk of getting build warsed themselves -If someone leaks they're running bspike-)

Jeydra · Jul 01, 2009, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Nadia: there certainly are builds that removes a large chunk of an enemy team's ability to defend itself as well, if you guess right (see RC Monk vs. Hexway). To (almost) completely ignore the other team's prots is of course strong, but it's balanced out by the plethora of weaknesses BSpike has as well. Risk vs. gain. Nothing stopping you from running a Superior Scythe rune so you can inflict the largest possible damage in a single hit, but you incur drawbacks if you do so, and that keeps it balanced.

Killed_u_man: I dunno, but didn't you just say in that same post that it's really easy to run BSpike? And therefore any other guild could reasonably run BSpike and pull it off? And therefore we should expect to see BSpike being run by a non-BSpike guild since it can carry bad players like Vador to victories over good guilds? Except we don't?

Seems to me you argued yourself into a contradiction. So you're saying that when the map rotation includes Burning Isle, top guilds know they can easily win by running Bloodspike but then refuse to do so since 1) they have honor and 2) someone might leak that they're running bloodspike?

Nadia Roark · Jul 01, 2009, 03:59 PM // 15:59

It just sounds like you don't understand PvP monking, sorry. About the only real option for a prot versus B-Spike is Gift of Health; anything else and he risks not being able to do his job properly. It's always easier to prevent damage than react to it, and bringing too many heal skills means he runs the risk of relying on them over his prot, which should be cast first. Gift is okay for healing the infuser, but that's not as necessary anymore given the differences between old and new BSpike.

Incidentally, Not having Melee does not make all Air Magic skills useless; BSpike does however accomplish this against Protection Prayers. .

Having one or two ways around prot is fine--I'm not saying it should always work 100% of the time, or else we'd have to remove PBlock and Shadow Shroud from the game and that's not necessary.

I'll repeat myself as many times as I have to, since I decided a long time ago that I'm not gonna be the one to lay down my gloves in this one: What I'm saying is that damage and its counters should be consistent throughout the game.

It's not about BSpike being overpowered, hell; it's not really even about prot--it just happens that prot is the most convenient example because ever other form of damage in the game is subject to it. I see no reason why the OP's suggestions are illegitimate; if for nothing else than on an intuitive level--how can you "steal" health if you're already at max? Barring a hard counter for lifestealing, or equipment to counter it, I think his suggestion is a good one if only because it brings lifestealing back in-line with the damage/prevention counters ANet has built everywhere else. Damage and its counters should be consistent throughout the game.

As I also said: If we want to keep BSpike immune to prot for some reason, fine--but there should be some other way of dealing with it as well since there's some other way of dealing with everything else. Barring a functionality nerf (as proposed by the OP) or turning those skills into damage skills, at least give us some kind of skill/insignia/rune/inscription or something to deal with life stealing.

As I have pointed out several times now (and you implicitly acknowledged I was right in this post) nothing in the game is quite as inherently debilitating to the enemy backline as BSpike is. If that doesn't call for a nerf, I don't know what does. They nerfed Sandstorm spam because monks couldn't possibly handle it. They nerfed Dual Smite because it was impossible to keep the ghost alive on an altar.

We've reached an interesting point now in the argument where even you are agreeing that nothing hinders a team's ability to defend itself quite like BSpike. Simply put, this is why things should be nerfed and have been in the past.

The fact that Air Magic is powerless against, let's say Soul Reaping is not pertinent to a team's defensive capability the way prot vs BSpike is. This distortion of yours is illegitimate on the grounds that it doesn't compare defensive skills with offensive ones; rather it compares random (offensive) attribute lines against other, random (offensive) attribute lines.

I'm not comparing attribute lines against each other directly; I'm comparing life stealing as a damage mechanic to Protection Prayers and you have consistently failed to levy an equivalent example.

You took what I said, distorted it, and attempted to pass it off as a legitimate argument. I'm not comparing attribute lines, I'm comparing damage mechanics to protection prayers and, I guess, other damage mechanics. Every other damage mechanic.

Again, this isn't so much about finding ways around prot, but even shove spike is subject to it on a level that BSpike isn't; SoA, RoF, Life Sheath, Shielding Hands and Aura of Stability all work against shovespike, so that's a pretty lame example.

If we want to keep BSpike immune to prot for some reason, fine--but there should be some other way of dealing with it as well since there's some other way of dealing with everything else. Barring a functionality nerf (as proposed by the OP) or turning those skills into damage skills, at least give us some kind of skill/insignia/rune/inscription or something to deal with life stealing.

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"This takes skill" arguments I've written elsewhere I pour scorn on. Having insignias etc to counter bloodspike with simply destroys it. Mitch wrote elsewhere that one reason Airspike disappeared is that you'll simply be faced with +10 Lightning shields and +7 Warding spears, not to mention everyone has Vitae runes now. What does that tell you?

I got news for ya: insignias and inscriptions "simply destroy" lots of builds already. It's part of the game's established variety in skills/equipment, and I'm arguing that the principle should be extended to BSpike. When I wear my fire shield, I laugh at Mathway. When I wear my Piercing shield, I can /dance in front of RSpike. Does that mean we should remove the equipment that counters them? Of course not. It just means that players will have to (*gasp!*) adapt.

Having an extra 60 HP (this, plus the shield handle which should always be +30 anyway) is not something that counters BSpike alone, which is what I'm going for here. You should (in general) run +60 HP against all spikes if you can; what I'm after here is a hard skill-or-equipment based counter to lifestealing since ever other method of damage has one. For every other spike in the game, you can still run with +60 HP and have an insignia/inscription/prot to counter it. Sheesh.

Certain people have their heads so far up their asses that the lump in their throat is their goddamn nose. Like I said, saying "but they haven't changed it in 4 years!" is an illegitimate defense for BSpike, just like "But Blood Magic sucks!" was. Just because they haven't (or, like you refuse) to notice it yet does not make it stick out any less than the proverbial sore thumb that it is.

Just because they haven't done anything about it in four years does not justify its continued existence. They let Necros get SR from spirits for like 2 years, and then finally realized "oh wait, that was not so great an idea," because they should have removed SR from spirits the minute they released Factions.

Revelations · Jul 01, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Prot prayers skill require awareness and prediction, and are thus healthier for promoting skilled gameplay than simple reactionary 'redbar' skills. If you want to reduce monk roles to spam heal damage after it has been done Jeydra, then please turn your attention towards a different online game. I'm sure you will not be missed.

Bloodspam is played by mashing 123123, and it is defended against by healspam. This makes for an incredibly boring match, with comparatively little skill involved from either side. It creates stagnant matches, where field awareness is not important, and all decisions are reactionary. Proactive decision making and prediction are key elements of Guild Wars that help define its competitive environment.

tl;dr: Jeydra has no idea what s/he is talking about. Bloodspam promotes ignorant play.

Nadia Roark · Jul 01, 2009, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

Proactive decision making and prediction are key elements of Guild Wars that help define its competitive environment.

Exactly, and this is why damage and protection work the way they do in every build except BSpike. There's also certain amount of "meta" prediction/decision making when it comes to what skills/equipment you bring, and BSpike also happens to be largely immune to this as well.

I'll take this opportunity to predict an answer along the lines of "So what?" or "Too Bad," while s/he continues to insist that we are the ones not explaining ourselves.

Still Number One · Jul 01, 2009, 05:27 PM // 17:27

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

So you're saying that when the map rotation includes Burning Isle, top guilds know they can easily win by running Bloodspike but then refuse to do so since 1) they have honor and 2) somoene might leak that they're running bloodspike?

Myself and hundreds others I know, will never touch Bspike/spam. It is a degenerate, no skill gimmick build that is a tumor to gameplay. We wish to see this build removed because it completely contradicts everything we want Guild Wars to be.

Guild Wars is supposed to be a skill based game. A game where you rely strategy, movement, micro, and execution in order to win. If you want to know what I mean, the most recent example of this would be back during the LoD meta. It was probably the closest we have had to skill based since nightfall was introduced.

Bloodspam completely rivals this concept. It is simply T-1-2-3 over and over until one team collapses. It is not skill based by any means. Therefore it is bad for the game because it allows people to cut corners and become a high ranked guild without deserving it. It is proven when Bspike is eventually taken from them and they fall off the face of Guild Wars. They go back to being terrible and we never see them again.

So the majority of players won't run it because we absolutely despise this style of play. But that doesn't count for everyone because PZZZ has run it and they beat KMD with it from what I hear. So people actually have run it and won games they probably wouldn't have otherwise.

Jeydra · Jul 01, 2009, 10:36 PM // 22:36

If you're unwilling to run more heals instead of more prots, then you obviously weaken yourself to bloodspike. You made the choice. Reason you made the choice is, as you put it, "it's always easier to prevent damage than react to it, and bringing too many heal skills means he runs the risk of relying on them over his prot, which should be cast first". Notice though that this doesn't apply to bloodspike. The difference between you and I is, you see it doesn't apply to bloodspike and therefore want bloodspike nerfed. I see it doesn't apply to bloodspike and so I change my builds.

Not having melee makes the broad class of skills "antimelee" useless, not all Air Magic skills. If you want to argue it this way then let me point out to you that BSpike certainly does not make Protection Prayers useless ... Aura of Faith and Zealous Benediction for example, and a few Protection Prayers skills prot BSpike.

I don't see why ANet doesn't intentionally want lifestealing to be the way it is, since it's been so for 4 years. I don't see why ANet "built everywhere else" the damage / prevention counters you say they did. I'm not able to read ANet's minds, but it seems to me they specifically built lifestealing to ignore all the damage / prevention counters.

Why should damage and its counters be consistent throughout the game (they already aren't)? Why should there be something to deal with BSpike other than "because everything else does"? Note if "because everything else does" is a reason then I can also argue that Dervishes should have lower max HP because everyone else does. Is that ridiculous or not?

BSpike is debilitating to the traditional Prot + Heal backline, yes. You can certainly keep up with it if you have two heal Monks. Also: nothing hinders a team's ability to defend itself more than running Bloodspike. Bloodspike builds are fragile, does that surprise you?

Your premise is that Prot + Heal + [insert antimelee midline defense] should be able to keep up with all kinds of damage, and therefore you're unhappy with Bloodspike. I don't agree with the premise, and so I don't agree with the conclusion.

You make it sound as though you adapt. You have not. You're insisting on running traditional Prot + Heal as though it should be able to outheal everything. Where's the adapting in that? Where's the adapting in "I want to run this, anything that beats it must be overpowered"?

For every other spike in the game you can still run +60 HP and still have an insignia / inscription / prot etc to counter it. So what? Notice that every other spike in the game is more deadly. A/P spike for example has a lot more midline defense spread everywhere. It has interrupts, it has snares. It can even afford to run two Monks + flagger. BSpike has none of that. If you give up all the defense you get with other builds, why shouldn't you get a more powerful spike somehow?

@Revelations - are you or are you not predicting that BSpike will see play in the mATs when Burning Isle is in the rotation?

Let me tell you this too:

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Originally Posted by Revelations

Bloodspam is played by mashing 123123, and it is defended against by healspam. This makes for an incredibly boring match, with comparatively little skill involved from either side.

sKy vs. hent this mAT was hexway vs. hexway on Weeping Stone, and an incredibly boring match too. It's 26 minutes of both teams going to stand and fighting there, trying to pressure out each other, both teams hardly dying, the situation hardly changing, etc. It's not specific to hexway vs. hexway too. yumy vs. Cry in the finals was also boring to watch. Maybe it's not boring to play, but it's boring to watch.

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Originally Posted by Still Number One

Bloodspam completely rivals this concept. It is simply T-1-2-3 over and over until one team collapses. It is not skill based by any means. Therefore it is bad for the game because it allows people to cut corners and become a high ranked guild without deserving it.

This sort of thinking will eliminate all spike builds. You know a few monthlies ago people were like, "we don't care about what rank guild you're in, all you got to do is press 'T' know how to count"? Take this line further and you'll remove defensive spike for the game. Do you want that? Perhaps you might, but I'll say right now that I do not, I want to keep defensive spike in the game in the name of build diversity and I pretty much cannot be convinced otherwise.

As for PZZZ running it, certainly some top guilds have played BSpike. But they haven't attempted it in serious games. In fact, nobody has. How many mAT playoffs, quarterfinals, semifinals and finals has KMD played in? More than I care to count. How many of those featured BSpike? None. How many times has BSpike featured in mATs anyway? For certain it has showed up, but last I remember it's SuKa running it on Isle of Jade because they can't play their usual byob on the map (ad they lost, too).

Do you think that if PZZZ plays KMD with a mAT playoffs / quarterfinals / semifinals / finals place on the line, they will play BSpike?

Still Number One · Jul 01, 2009, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Jeydra, that sort of thinking eliminates super defensive omega spike, which is bad for the game. It eliminates spike builds that use maybe 1 to 2 skills per bar in order to spike and the other slots for defense. Before the power creep people actually had to bring a majority of damage skills in order to push spikes through. Now they just sit behind layers of defense and cast an extremely overpowered spike every 8 seconds.

there is a difference between spike builds and defensive web spike builds. Spike builds were good for build variety. Defensive web spike builds kill build variety because they become so much better than every other build that you have to run it or you gimp yourself. If you need an example just see rawr spike.

Pretty sure the PZZZ vs KMD match was in an mAT. It wasn't in the playoffs, but every match in an mAT matters so I would consider it a serious game. The reason most people don't is probably because they don't feel comfortable doing it. You don't play a build in an mAT you have no practice running, no matter how powerful or brainless it may seem. PZZZ is a guild with some pretty funny guys who like to goof off every now and then. They more than likely had some experience running Bspam prior to that match.

I wouldn't put it past PZZZ to use BSpike in mAT playoffs. They have run it and won with it. They would just have to consider whether or not KMD would be ready for it. Because they already used it, they lost the element of surprise. But I wouldn't be shocked if they pulled it out against them again, and I don't think KMD would be that shocked to see it, although before we go any further with this I think it'd be nice if someone from PZZZ or KMD could confirm this did occur because I may be mixing guilds up.

FoxBat · Jul 01, 2009, 11:22 PM // 23:22

"Good" for the game or not, this is a lot of arguing over an inconsequential change. The current bspam skills are under spirit bond, and dark pact already triggers rofs pretty well. SoA could stop it cold until they just switch targets and kill that while you are waiting on it's recharge, except that skill isn't even standard on every gvg prot bar. And it's not like games against them last long enough to make Prot Spirit relevant on the DP. Lifesteal->damage change at this point would make them more buildwars-able, but wouldn't help much on the ladder.

Nadia Roark · Jul 02, 2009, 03:34 AM // 03:34

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

You're missing the point.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

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If you're unwilling to run more heals instead of more prots, then you obviously weaken yourself to bloodspike. You made the choice.

And I just told you why that's not viable. Jesus tap-dancing Christ. Pay attention.

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Reason you made the choice is, as you put it, "it's always easier to prevent damage than react to it, and bringing too many heal skills means he runs the risk of relying on them over his prot, which should be cast first". Notice though that this doesn't apply to bloodspike. The difference between you and I is, you see it doesn't apply to bloodspike and therefore want bloodspike nerfed. I see it doesn't apply to bloodspike and so I change my builds.

Again, (echo, echo, echo) this is why BSpike doesn't fit. I want it changed because it doesn't fit. It is not in sync with how the rest of the game is played in every other build. I don't care if there's two (gasp!) prot skills that have some piddling effect against BSpike, or that I can still use Divine Favor. Taking half the backline out of the game with a meta decision is not game balance.

Imagine, if you will, a class-based FPS. Most class-based FPses have something resembling a "medic" class. Now imagine that there is a kit that allows a player to use a gun that disintegrates enemies (making enemy medics useless) and heals you at the same time (making it so that your team doesn't have to run them). You can still dodge his individual shots, or kill him before he fires, but you've essentially removed a portion of the enemy team from the game entirely not because of your skill or acumen, but because of the choices you made at the character selection screen.

Now imagine that something identical has actually happened in a game's final release (Enemy Territory: Quake Wars). Do you know what happened to the devs? They got dropped like a bad habit, because no one played the game on account of its complete lack of balance. Id and Activision said "adios" and took the franchise away from them because they botched the game so badly. I still played it for a year, out of my loyalty to the ET franchise, but it never had much of a playerbase because it was terribly balanced and most players saw that during the public beta and didn't bother with the game.

Luckily, the situation isn't quite this bad in GW, but BSpike operates on a mechanic similar to the one that lost these poor suckers their franchise. Metagaming is part of the game and I'm not suggesting it be done away with, but metagaming decisions shouldn't remove an entire character class from play. Telling me to just "not run prot" is a mind-blowingly stupid counter to this argument; running without prot is just not an option and if you had any kind of experience backlining, you'd know this.

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Not having melee makes the broad class of skills "antimelee" useless, not all Air Magic skills. If you want to argue it this way then let me point out to you that BSpike certainly does not make Protection Prayers useless ... Aura of Faith and Zealous Benediction for example, and the Protection Prayers skill that prots BSpike (have you found it yet?).

My guess would be Aegis (which is terrible). I'm sure you'll try to say you were thinking about something else (like, I dunno, shielding hands or RoF or SoA against Dark Pact spikes--which again, I've never seen a BSpike run) because Aegis is just terrible against BSpike on account of its horrendously long recharge. I'm surprised you'd even bring it up, but I guess that's about par for the course at this point.

But, again, even on an antimelee utility character, you're not obligated to run nothing but antimelee the way a prot pretty much has to run straight prot to be useful for the reasons I explained in my last post. No build in the history of GW has ever been nerfed for being able to counter situational utility. Builds have been nerfed because they were overpowering to the enemy backline. They've left it alone for four years, but (like I said before zzzz) they also let Necros get Soul Reaping from spirits for two before finally realizing it was a bad idea. First they halved the energy gain from spirit SR, and then some months later they finally did away with it altogether because the one-half solution didn't really change anything.

But I see we're back to this nonsense, since you apparently don't have any arguments left to fall back on. Again, antimelee is utility. Prot is necessity. Without it, you will lose to everything except possibly BSpike. This, if anything, proves my point all the more: a build should not be so powerful against the backline that you have to sacrifice winning versus everything else to be able to beat it.

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You've said this many times and I don't see why ANet doesn't intentionally want lifestealing to be the way it is, since it's been so for 4 years. I don't see why ANet "built everywhere else" the damage / prevention counters you say they did. I'm not able to read ANet's minds, but it seems to me they specifically built lifestealing to ignore all the damage / prevention counters.

I wish I knew. It makes no sense, but there you have it. I have noticed that, in general, the devs love Necromancers. They'll nerf Necro skill/mechanics every once in a while, but they've been pretty much the most powerful caster class ever since release. At one point a couple years back, they were the only class capable of fulfilling just about every PvP role except for melee: they could hex spam, they could manage utility, they could (and still can) deal damage, and for a while there they could backline better than monks.

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You've also said this many times, and my response is the same. Why should it be?

You've already asked me this and I've answered it about a half dozen times, but you're apparently determined to dismiss any answer as "not compelling" or whatever, despite reams of testimony to the contrary. I don't see what's so hard to understand about the concept of having a uniform system of damage/prevention from a design standpoint and why that's good for gameplay consistency and competitiveness. Having one build in the game only be counterable by pushing red bars up, eliminating the concepts of "prediction" and "decision-making"--when they're staples of every other PvP match in the game-- is just bad for gameplay. Why, you ask? Because it clashes with the established game dynamic. Because it (potentially) "forces" you to marginalize yourself against everyone else because one team out there might happen to be too lazy to run a real build that the game is (with this one exception) built to encourage.

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Why should damage and its counters be consistent throughout the game (they already aren't)? Why should there be something to deal with BSpike other than "because everything else does"?

I'm going to have to stop you right there (again). Why is "because everything else does" an illegitimate argument? Why is the idea of having uniform rules for damage/counters dismissed out of hand?

Exceptions to some or other rules are all well and good; it's what makes the game interesting. But to actually defend the idea that we should just go ahead and have one form of direct 'damage' ignore the rules more or less completely just doesn't make any sense. The onus isn't on me here, it's on you, actually, to explain to me why BSpike deserves an exception on these grounds. Why not have an inscription for it? Why not have a rune or some other piece of equipment that can marginalize life stealing?

Traditionally, in debates, the onus of truth is on the person making negative statements. If I say "The sky is blue," the onus isn't on me to explain why. If someone says "no it isn't," it's their intellectual responsibility to explain that it's not and we're all just colorblind (or... something).

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BSpike is debilitating to the traditional Prot + Heal backline, yes. You can certainly keep up with it if you have two heal Monks.

Yeah, and you'll lose to everything else. Again (man, I should really just copy that word and just ctrl+v it all over the place), no build should be so powerful that you have to basically accept losing to everything else in order to beat it.

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Your premise is that Prot + Heal + [insert antimelee midline defense] should be able to keep up with all kinds of damage, and therefore you're unhappy with Bloodspike. I don't agree with the premise, and so I don't agree with the conclusion.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Patently incorrect. As I've said (I should c/p that one too) it's not about prots/heals for me so much as it is about how goddamn damage works in this game. It's fine to have ways around prot (since, indeed, BSpike isn't the only way around prot); if the above were my premise I'd be asking to remove Shadow Shroud and PBlock from the game as well and I've already made it clear that this isn't necessary.

The difference between BSpike and those skills are pretty profound. PBlock and Shadow Shroud are both elites. They both require situational awareness, prediction, and tactics just like most everything else in Guild Wars PvP. BSpike requires none of these things and also does not rely on the use of elite skills.

I am not saying that prot/heals+ antimelee should "keep up with all damage;" without ways to overpower them, no one would ever die if they had decent monks and the game would be even more boring than playing as or against BSpike. Way to miss the forest for the trees.

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Fire Magic being powerless against melee is certainly pertinent to a team's defensive capability. Does that make it matter?

I'm sorry, but that just makes no sense. You don't put a fire ele in a team for "defensive capability" unless he happens to be running some or other utility. You can run without fire eles. You can't run without heals/prots.

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You make it sound as though you adapt. You have not. You're insisting on running traditional Prot + Heal as though it should be able to outheal everything. Where's the adapting in that? Where's the adapting in "I want to run this, anything that beats it must be overpowered"?

c/p time (hopefully posting it twice may force you to realize what an overwhelming misunderstanding you've made)

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Patently incorrect. As I've said (I should c/p that one too) it's not about prots/heals for me so much as it is about how goddamn damage works in this game. It's fine to have ways around prot (since, indeed, BSpike isn't the only way around prot); if the above were my premise I'd be asking to remove Shadow Shroud and PBlock from the game as well and I've already made it clear that this isn't necessary.

The difference between BSpike and those skills are pretty profound. PBlock and Shadow Shroud are both elites. They both require situational awareness prediction, and tactics just like most everything else in Guild Wars PvP. BSpike requires none of these things and also does not rely on the use of elite skills.

I am not saying that prot/heals+ antimelee should "keep up with all damage;" without ways to overpower them, no one would ever die if they had decent monks and the game would be even more boring than playing as or against BSpike. Way to miss the forest for the trees.

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You shouldn't be running +60 HP against all spikes - for armor-depending spikes you run +5 armor (or +7).

I've generally found this to be pretty superfluous, actually. The +10 inscrip on my shield is sufficient in most matches I've played, and when it comes to protting I tend to prefer 10% HSR/+20% enchant. Then again, I don't GvG.

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For every other spike in the game you can still run +60 HP and still have an insignia / inscription / prot etc to counter it. So what?

So it's an established game dynamic, that's what. ANet should shit or get off the pot. I don't see why lifestealing (especially when Necros have so many other nifty toys) deserves an exemption from this dynamic. You seem to, but have been unusually tight-lipped when it comes to explaining why.

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Notice that every other spike in the game is more deadly.A/P spike for example has a lot more midline defense spread everywhere. It has interrupts, it has snares. It can even afford to run two Monks + flagger. BSpike has none of that. If you give up all the defense you get with other builds, why shouldn't you get a more powerful spike somehow?

Wait, how do you go from "every other spike in the game is more deadly" to "If you give up all the defense you get with other builds, why shouldn't you get a more powerful spike somehow?" in the same paragraph?

Still, I'm not familiar with GvG BSpike (since it's obviously different from HA BSpike), and I'm not particularly interested in getting dragged into its details. Regardless of what "sacrifices" (*snrk*) you have to make to run BSpike, lifestealing still flies in the face of established game dynamics and I still haven't been enlightened as to why this is justified.

Sandros · Jul 02, 2009, 04:57 AM // 04:57

I dont think the point is to debate if you can prot vs bloodspike to defend against it. The point is just, bloodspike is lame. It require 0 skill, people who run it are scum, thats it. You should never reward scrubs. People who run bloodspike clearly do it because they wanna win and cant win if they try to run anything that is harder to play. Crap its like if I would go to a karate tournement with a gun and shoot some black belt dude and win a trophy saying im a martial art expert. Maybe Bruce lee would dodge the bullet and kick my ass, but I would still be pretty lame.

People dont run in it the MaT because first, people who play "balanced" and are very good will still crush these scrubs and I'm pretty sure if a team would win the MaT with bloodspike, they would be laughed at and considered by everyone bad players. No one would actually consider them good. No one.

Nadia Roark · Jul 02, 2009, 05:23 AM // 05:23

I agree with you in principle Sandros, but ANet isn't going to do anything about it unless we, as players, can give them solid reasons why it's bad for the game. "Scrubs can play it and win" may be true, but it's insufficient reasoning to alter game mechanics. In order to make meaningful changes, they need concrete feedback that explains why $THING is bad for the game. I've provided these reasons in spades despite Jeydra's continued ignorance/evasion of them. I've probably continued my discourse longer than I absolutely have to (since I've repeated myself on probably close to a dozen different occasions) so I imagine if they're reading, they've gotten the point by now even if Jeydra hasn't. I just refuse to let his straw man and non-sequitur-laden nonsense get the last word here.

I don't know whether our discussion had any bearing on this decision (I like to think it did) but ANet finally got around to removing Soul Reaping from spirits shortly after a thread called "Soul Reaping and its abuse" concluded with my systematic destruction of necrolovers ' arguments much to the same tune of what we're seeing here. I think they do pay some attention to what we say on here, so I make an effort to ensure I explain myself fully--even if my opponent is convincing himself that I'm not, or that my reasons are "not convincing."